Barry Du Bois on resilience, connection, and overcoming blood cancer

[00:02:37] Maryanne: Hello, my name is Maryanne Skarparis, and welcome to Talking Blood Cancer. I feel very privileged here this morning with me is Barry Du Bois, who is an ambassador with the Leukaemia Foundation. And we are very excited and we welcome Barry to recognise us as a valuable organisation. Now, Barry, are you happy to share with the listeners your experience with blood cancer? 

[00:02:59] Barry: Yeah, I definitely am. I think it’s really important to share it. I got my first cancer in 2011.  

[00:03:05] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:05] Barry: That was a plasmacytoma myeloma. And then I think it was six years after that, 2017. The cancer returned as a multiple myeloma, so it’s a blood cancer like leukaemia, if you will. But realistically, how I approached my two rounds of cancer had a lot to do with the cancer that came in my life before that, not with me, but with people I love and care about.  

[00:03:30] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:30] Barry: And that sort of takes me back to 2004. My beautiful mum had been battling cancer for quite some time. She started with breast cancer, but in the end it was everywhere. And she lived in a regional country town, but I think it might’ve been the same right through the country. Back in 2004, 20-something years ago now, we didn’t believe in thriving again after cancer. We just sort of get on this, ‘travelator’ I call it, where they’d feed you medication and say, ‘go home, spend time with your family.’ And that was really frustrating for me. Really frustrating, and whilst I accepted it, I was really angry about it because I didn’t know any different. I didn’t know that there might be better care in other places. I, I couldn’t really believe back then that you could get lesser care just because of your postcode. I think that’s, in a country like Australia, I think that’s horrific. But again, in hindsight, I didn’t realise it back then. But just 12 months after my mum passed away. We were still grieving, and my wife and I were going through IVF. We’d had several attempts of IVF. We were pregnant with twins. And at 17 weeks, we lost that pregnancy. And in the follow-up to that, we discovered that Leonie had cervical cancer. And, so again, I’m still grieving the cancer of the passing of my mum, and I’m trying to support my dad who was really struggling. Dad was clinically blind at that stage of his life, and they lived in a regional coastal town. So, you know, you’re trying to manage your parents, my dad, and trying to manage everything that goes with that. You’re trying to grieve, and you don’t have time to grieve. And then we’re going to treatment for Leonie, and obviously I’m petrified of what could happen there as well. And that to me, and I talk about this a lot in my courses now, that’s a whole lot of borrowed trauma.  

[00:05:23] Maryanne: Yes.  

[00:05:23] Barry: And whilst we got through the treatment with Leonie, and she had surgery and radiotherapy. The borrowed trauma I personally had taken from that as an alpha male, if you will. It really started to affect my mental health. It really, you know, I had grief with mum and loss, and then there was the miscarriage and the lack of control there. And now cancer just seemed to be popping up with everybody I cared about. 

[00:05:48] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:48] Barry:  So I somehow started to blame myself for that. I figured that the reason people that I love were being hurt was somehow my fault. And that’s because, and I say this in hindsight, ’cause I spent a lot of time talking about it now. That’s because I didn’t want to talk about the pain I was in.  

[00:06:08] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:06:08] Barry: I didn’t wanna talk about the fact that I was really deeply hurting, because I felt that a lot of people relied on me. 

[00:06:14] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:06:14] Barry: And I wanted to show strength. But by not sharing your trauma and not engaging in human contact, what that means is you start having all your conversations with yourself. And when you have conversations with yourself, they become a very negative bias conversation. And as I said, I’d gotten myself to such a point that I was literally blaming myself for the issues of the ones I loved. That sent me down a dark spiral. I got very depressed, and I even considered taking my own life.  

[00:06:48] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:06:48] Barry: I can’t really tell you the timeline because, like it is for a lot of people going through supporting someone with cancer or going through it themselves. You compress your life into minutes. 

[00:06:58] Maryanne: Yes. 

[00:06:58]  Barry: You don’t live in years, you live in minutes. So it’s very hard to work out the timeline exactly. But I think it was about 12 to 18 months later, I was at my worst. I wasn’t engaging in any conversation with any humans. I was hurting inside, and that was affecting my outer layer as well. I mentally crashed. I couldn’t cope anymore, quite frankly. But thankfully, I found a way to rebuild resilience. And so we’re talking, then seven or eight years later, my first cancer came along and it was interesting. I, I say this, the struggles I went through with the borrowed trauma of mum and Leonie. And the miscarriages, of course. It had taught me to be resilient. Again, it taught me to lean into adversity, and it was an interesting story because I had a really bad pain in my neck. I’d had a surfing accident and I thought I’d just twisted my neck.  

[00:07:48] Maryanne: Yep 

[00:07:48]  Barry: But I went into the uh, doctor’s surgery and I’d had some x-rays and I went back to get the x-rays checked. And this is a doctor I’d never seen before, so I didn’t know this person, but she literally turned her seat towards me and put her hand on my lap.  

[00:08:02] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:08:02]  Barry: And she just said to me, ‘Barry, do you have family?’ And with that little tear trickle from her eye. 

[00:08:08] Maryanne: Oh. 

[00:08:08] Barry: And I said, ‘Yeah, I’ve got family and I’ve got a bad headache. What’s wrong? Just tell me what’s going on.’ And she said, ‘I dunno what it is, but there’s a giant tumour at the base of your brain there, it seems to be wrapped around your, vertebrae. So I’m gonna call an ambulance.’ So I ended up in St. Vincent’s Hospital that day. Leonie and I had been in there all day. They’d prodded me and taken blood tests and X-rays, MRIs, CAT scans. They put a rod in through my neck here and slid that in, and then slid something through that, and then popped into the tumour itself to drag it out. To try and work out what they were going to do.  

[00:08:44] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:44] Barry: You wouldn’t believe it at about four or five o’clock that afternoon. I’m sitting in those clinical rooms that we’ve all seen before. And there was three doctors in front of me, and the first doctor literally said word for word: ‘I’m really sorry, Barry. It’s very aggressive. It’s a big tumour. It’s in a really difficult place. I think the best thing you can do is go home, spend as much time as you can with your family and tidy up your affairs.’ 

[00:09:11] Maryanne: Goodness me. 

[00:09:11] Barry: ‘I think you got about three months to live.’ I- 

[00:09:14] Maryanne: Oh, Barry, those words. How do you- 

[00:09:16] Barry: That they were horrific. But it’s interesting. I attribute my next comment to what had happened in the past…, 

[00:09:23] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:24] Barry: Because I’d seen a lot of… What I hadn’t seen a lot of was support.  

[00:09:29] Maryanne: Right. 

[00:09:29] Barry: Okay? 

[00:09:30] Maryanne: Mm-hmm 

[00:09:30] Barry: So I just said to that doctor, thank you for your opinion, but I’m not interested in it, and I’d rather you leave the room before I speak to the next doctors. And everybody that goes through any sort of medical treatment, the hierarchy puts the doctor at the top.  

[00:09:45] Maryanne: Mm-hmm 

[00:09:45] Barry:  But quite frankly when you have cancer, or a serious illness of any description. You’re at the top of the hierarchy and you shouldn’t, if you can, let anybody dictate your journey. 

[00:09:56] Maryanne: Can I just say, I love that you’ve used those words. 

[00:10:00] Barry: Yeah. 

[00:10:01] Maryanne: You are the consumer of the medical world, not them of you. 

[00:10:05] Barry: That’s right. And it’s interesting because the next two doctors who I asked them if they wanted to work with me as a team, I’m not interested in a hierarchy. I said to the next doctor, ‘Quite frankly, I’m not sure exactly what you do, but I know me, and I’ve been through these battles before, and I dunno if it’s three months, 90 days or nine years, I’m gonna give this my best and I’m not gonna give up. So if you want to give your best and you don’t want to give up, stay with me.’  

[00:10:35] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:35] Barry: And quite frankly, both those doctors are still my doctors today. And clearly, she was wrong, the first doctor –  

[00:10:42] Maryanne: The first doctor. 

[00:10:42] Barry: Yeah. And, she may not have been wrong if you went to that conveyor belt idea…, 

[00:10:48] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:48] Barry: Of just not believing you can thrive, take the medication, you get on the conveyor belt. 

[00:10:53] Maryanne: Yeah. 

[00:10:54]  Barry: But I took the medication, I did a whole bunch of other things. Whole bunch of other integrative oncology that helped me. And I just determined whether it is nine days or 90 days or nine years, I was gonna live every second of every day and do my best to make it 91 days. Or 93 days that’s what my focus was. And when we hear those words, or even say those words, like I said, our timeline gets compressed from years to minutes. 

[00:11:23] Maryanne: Yes. 

[00:11:23] Barry: And that’s why those minutes are even more important to love and cherish, but also work to getting more minutes. So I did, I survived, I had a major surgery. I had lots of chemo and radiotherapy. And then-  

[00:11:35] Maryanne: What year was this, Barry? Can I-  

[00:11:37] Barry: It was 2011. 

[00:11:38] Maryanne: 2011? Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:40] Barry: Yeah. And in 2017 I was on my TV show, The Living Room.  

[00:11:44] Maryanne: Yes. 

[00:11:45] Barry: And I was doing a segment in The Living Room called Take Home, Baz. And it’s where I go into Bunnings, so into a hardware store there. And I walk around the aisles and I just talk to people and I ask them what they’re doing. And I say, ‘do you think you can manage it?’ If they say, ‘no’ I go home and give ’em a hand, you know. You wouldn’t believe it. When you’ve had cancer, you get blood tests first every two months after it, and then every six months and then yearly. Well, I hadn’t been to the doctors for quite a while. And I got this funny pain in my rib, and everybody that’s listening will understand this. When you’ve had cancer and you get a pain somewhere, your brain just goes to that. So I, I went and saw Professor Sam and we did the urine test, we did some x-rays and off I went back to work. And once I’d seen him, the pain went away. I wasn’t worried about it again. But as I said, I was working, I was filming one day, and I got this phone call from a private number.  

[00:12:38] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:38] Barry: And even, believe or not in 2017 you could answer a private number ’cause it wasn’t a telemarketer. And it was generally someone of importance. And it was, it was my doctor. And he said, ‘Oh, Baz, you were supposed to come in after the blood tests. You haven’t been in yet.’ And I said, ‘Oh, I feel pretty good. And I figured if there was anything wrong, you’d ring me.’ 

[00:12:57] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:12:57] Barry: He said, ‘Well, I’m ringing you.’ He said, ‘It seems that the plasmacytoma being one myeloma has now spread to a multiple’ and I’ve got lots of tumours in my body now it’s a blood cancer, ‘so it’s right through you.’ So it’s really interesting, obviously Leonie was the first person I call. Two things are really interesting about that. You know, I was filming that day and I’m surrounded by friends. I mean, a film crew is a pretty tight crew, but you couldn’t tell anybody. I couldn’t share that news with anybody until I’d shared it with Leonie and I filmed that day… 

[00:13:30] Maryanne: Yeah. 

[00:13:30] Barry: …knowing that I’m full of cancer again. And- 

[00:13:33] Maryanne: It would’ve been a very surreal moment for you. 

[00:13:36] Barry: Cancer is a surreal thing, and that’s why you’ve gotta lean into it and not make it a surreal thing. Make it a real thing that you can fight, and you can win that fight. I’ve proven that multiple times now. But I told Leonie that afternoon and the next person I told was Amanda Keller. And she said, ‘Baz, if it was anybody else, I’d be worried, but because it’s you, I’m not worried. If you say you’re gonna be okay, you’re gonna be okay, and I trust that.’ We then…, her and I decided that we’d take that to our show and we’d announce that on the show. And we both knew that I was gonna go from what I look like now, a relatively healthy guy…, 

[00:14:13] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:14] Barry: I was gonna go through stem cell transplant, and I was gonna have chemotherapy. So I was gonna take the viewers to a really dark space. 

[00:14:21] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:21] Barry: But then my belief was that then I was gonna take them back to thriving again. And we figured that if I could do that, we would inspire a lot of people to believe in themselves and believe that you can win any battle you’re prepared to fight. And that’s what we did. So we announced it in 2017. I was going through treatment when we announced it, but my hair hadn’t fallen out yet. But you know, the gorgeous thing about that was we were a little bit worried about announcing it on TV. 

[00:14:50] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:50] Barry: But within seconds, within minutes anyway, of announcing that, there was literally hundreds of thousands of messages of support.  

[00:14:59] Maryanne: Oh. 

[00:14:59] Barry: And it was so powerful for me.  

[00:15:02] Maryanne: Yep. 

[00:15:02] Barry: This is anonymous support. But it was just knowing how many people were standing beside me, and believing in me. And something that’s been really special for me in my life. I think a very blessed with this. Is that hardly a week goes by when someone doesn’t come up to me and say ‘My uncle was going through cancer at the same time you were, and you kept him going.’ ‘I lost my dad, but he watched you every week and he knew that if you were still there, he had a chance.’ And she said, ‘He lived a better life because of you.’ So I hear that literally every week, still. And it’s nearly a decade on. And that’s why being a Leukaemia Foundation ambassador is so important to me. These are lived experiences that others that are starting their lived experience can find strength from.  

[00:15:47] Maryanne: I actually love what you’ve shared in conversation with me this morning because when you look at that vulnerability that you had right from when your mother was sick. And then of course being that strong person in your own journey with Leonie, your wife, and the loss of twins. And then Leonie’s journey herself with cancer. So you’ve had that perspective of being a carer, of nurturing her, seeing…, probably building her up so that she could manage treatment and- 

[00:16:17] Barry: Mmm. 

[00:16:17] Maryanne: I think we all look for in life, when you look at key things in life, we look for connection. And we’ll just really sealed that when you shared that, ‘Okay, I’ve got my personal resilience that I’ve built over life, but I’m going to bring the people who watch me.’ I think our work does define us in a lot of ways, and I know you have immersed yourself in a career that you’ve actually loved, enjoyed, immersed yourself in, and you’ve got a good, like you say, second family around you.  

[00:16:50] Barry: Mmm. 

[00:16:50] Maryanne: So that is a strength.  

[00:16:51] Barry: Just, on what you said there, it’s really interesting because you said that I helped build Leonie up. Something important to understand is you don’t have to do anything. You just have to stand beside someone. Leonie is very independent and a very strong woman and didn’t want anything extra, so to speak. So that’s important to know. Sometimes you believe that you should do this and this is how it should go…, 

[00:17:15] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:15] Barry: But the person you’re caring for has a different journey. 

[00:17:18] Maryanne: Absolutely. 

[00:17:18] Barry: And it’s really important to ask questions, not make statements when, I always say now in my courses, ‘The gift of communication is questioning.’ And whilst they are, sometimes saying is easier than asking. Like saying what you need to do is read this book. When people used to say that, used to do my head in. But if someone would say to me, ‘Hey Baz, I don’t know if there’s anything I can do, but if you think of something, I’d love to help, if you want me to.’  

[00:17:49] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:17:49] Barry: That just empowered me. That’s the sort of language I talk about constantly. Just ask the question because that empowers the person. It lets ’em know that if they do need something, there’s someone standing beside me.  

[00:18:03] Maryanne: Actually communication is key.  

[00:18:05] Barry: Human contact is key. 

[00:18:06] Maryanne: And how we communicate, which is I think what you are sharing is really poignant with how that support comes about.  

[00:18:16] Barry: Yeah. 

[00:18:16] Maryanne: So if you, I mean this is a fabulous opportunity to share with others who have been inspired by you, who keep reaching out to you and thank you for your open sharing. So what would be key messages that you feel would be important, with communication with your spouse? Let’s start there, your inner circle. You know, when we look at a layer of a person. 

[00:18:38] Barry: It’s not that complex at all. It doesn’t matter if it’s your closest person or, or a person you meet at a cafe. And they share with you that they have something. 

[00:18:48] Maryanne: Mm-hmm 

[00:18:48] Barry: There’s three types of conversation. There’s a solution-based conversation, there’s a social conversation, and there’s an empathy-based conversation. If someone says to you, ‘I’ve got cancer’, they didn’t ask for a solution. So the most important thing you can do is hear what’s in front of you. And the last thing someone wants, if they’re sharing something, is a solution when they’re looking for an empathy-based conversation or a social-based conversation. So, you don’t have to offer anything. You can just say, ‘Is there anything I can do?’  

[00:19:25] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:19:25] Barry: Or sometimes you don’t even have to say anything but ‘That must be difficult’. The amount of people that avoided conversations with me because they knew it was gonna be difficult was disheartening. Close friends, some of my closest friends couldn’t talk to me. They were that upset. And that’s because they didn’t have a solution for me. But I didn’t need a solution. I just needed empathy. I talk about it often. One of the courses I do around rebuilding resilience. I talk about the fact that I remember really clearly a mate, he had decided what’s best for me. This is my closest friend. He’d decided what’s the best result for me, and he got frustrated that I didn’t seem to have the energy to do it. And I did have the energy to do it. I just didn’t want to do it. I had my plan, and I wanted to know that he would stand beside me with my plan. Of course, when I put my boundaries and I said, ‘Mate, I can’t do that, and honestly, I don’t want a solution. I just wanna know you’re here for me.’ He just reached across and hugged me and said, ‘I’m always here for you. Always’. But I learn a lot from that, and I teach that very lesson every day in my courses, and that. Sometimes it’s easier to have the little difficult conversation and make the understanding of the narrative a lot better.  

[00:20:38] Maryanne: That’s another lovely thing that I think is important to share. Many people who I support, one of the things that’s shared with me is the disappointment in friendships. And one of the things I say to them is having an understanding of maybe they don’t know what to say or…, 

[00:20:54] Barry: They don’t. 

[00:20:55] Maryanne: How would you go about opening that up, so that you can see. So what would you suggest to people? 

[00:21:01] Barry: It’s just the questioning. But also to everybody in every line of conversation, we have to see what conversation is in front of us and the best way to see what conversation in front of us isn’t with our eyes. It’s take the words through the ear, but hear them in your heart. 

[00:21:16] Maryanne: Mm-hmm 

[00:21:16] Barry: If they ask how you are, tell ’em how you are. That could come across as, ‘Well, I’m struggling a bit because I don’t know what I can do to help you.’  

[00:21:25] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:21:25] Barry: That’s an honest answer.  

[00:21:27] Maryanne: Yep. 

[00:21:27] Barry: That’s a really honest answer. That would give the person who’s initiated the conversation a better sense of understanding. 

[00:21:35] Maryanne: Yeah. 

[00:21:36] Barry: You know,  

[00:21:36] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:36] Barry: Honesty is the best place to go. If you don’t know what to say, you say ‘I just don’t know what to say.’ 

[00:21:41] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:41] Barry: And that person will really easily then say to you, ‘You don’t have to say anything, but I just know that you’re here.’ And then if you follow that up with a question, ‘If there’s anything you think I can do, would you tell me?’ or… You’ve strengthened that person’s resolve right there. 

[00:21:57] Maryanne: Yeah. You mentioned earlier, Barry, that you were quite low at one point. What was the turning point for you that made you move forward? 

[00:22:07] Barry: Yeah, human connection. I’d remove myself from any sort of connection. I didn’t wanna talk about the fact that we couldn’t get pregnant anymore. I definitely didn’t wanna talk about, this is the wrong thing, but I wasn’t talking about the grief that I was suffering. I wasn’t talking about the grief or the borrowed trauma that I was suffering. And it was really interesting. A really close friend of mine had four beautiful girls, babies. And this particular person was like a son to me anyway. It’s interesting I’m that character that for the first three girls, for example, I was the first person in the hospital. The biggest bunch of flowers, the biggest bunch of chocolates, the biggest teddy bear, you know. That, that’s who I was. But he’d had his fourth daughter, some four or five months earlier, and he’d realised that I hadn’t even text messaged him to say congratulations. So he just had it in his brain that something has to be wrong. He then thought about it with his heart. And he didn’t wanna ring up and say, ‘Hey, you haven’t come over yet.’ He just rang up one night and it was a very dark night for me.  

[00:23:11] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:23:11] Barry: I was sitting in front of my house. I, I didn’t want to go inside. And he rang me up and he said, ‘How are you buddy? I miss ya.’ And I said, ‘I’m okay. How are you?’ He said to me, ‘Well, it’s Thursday nights and we’re outta money’. Because he’s a tradie and most tradies are outta money by Thursdays. And he said, ‘So, I’m come down to the bottle shop to get a couple of, three beers’. And his wife was making toasted sandwiches and we’re gonna watch the footy show, he said. When he said that with no inhibition. He was quite happy to tell me he was broke. He was quite happy to tell he was gonna have a very meager meal and he didn’t mention the girls. I felt bad, but I just started to cry at that moment because his life was so simple and so perfect, and mine on the outside, on that outer shell that I was projecting my confident light, so to speak. I was letting everybody think that I was going great. 

[00:24:04] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:24:04] Barry: But in actual fact, the inside of me was going really dark.  

[00:24:09] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:24:09] Barry: And when he heard me sobbing and realised that I couldn’t even continue a conversation. He just kept repeating on the phone, ‘I’m here with you. Baz, don’t worry, I’m here with you.’ I didn’t realise it, but he was driving to my house. He lives about 25-30 minutes away, and I think it was about 15 or 18 minutes later, he pulled up beside and he just opened the door and just hugged me and held me. And the whole time continued that narrative. ‘I’m here with you, mate. I’m here.’ He didn’t let me go. His heart was connected to my heart. No words from me came out. And we sat there for a while and we eventually went upstairs into my home and sat with me all night on the lounge. And we fell asleep. We woke up in the morning and ‘would you feel like going for a walk on the beach together?’ Cause we used to do that when we were younger.  

[00:24:56] Maryanne: Yeah. 

[00:24:56] Barry: And that human connection, that moment of empathy and care without solution allowed me to take that micro step of going on the beach. And waving to a friend that I hadn’t seen for ages. And so it was, that moment that was the clear moment of change where the human contact and human connection, and empathy rose to the top. And then when you take that first micro step, well then you see, okay, well that felt good.  

[00:25:27] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:25:27] Barry: I’m gonna take another micro step. And then another. And then, within 12 months I was back to doing my yoga. I was back to doing my meditation. I was caring about my body again. I was caring about my nutrition. I was caring about human connection again. I was looking for difficult conversations because I realised by leaning into that adversity of a difficult conversation it built more resilience and I could take on more. So I always was like that, but that period of darkness took me away from it and that moment of human connection brought me back to it. 

[00:26:00] Maryanne: What a lovely turning point and what a beautiful friend.  

[00:26:04] Barry: Yeah. A friend that doesn’t celebrate that moment because it was just friendship to him. 

[00:26:08] Maryanne: Yeah, that’s it. But you don’t look for accolades in this world. They’re moments in time, as you say, I love the use of words human connection is key. Walking with someone, connecting to someone, being present is really important.  

[00:26:24] Barry: Yeah, being present is really important. And him just coming to me first of all saying ‘I’m with you’ is a micro step. Him coming was another micro step. And those things together made it possible for me to take my own step.  

[00:26:41] Maryanne: Yeah.  

[00:26:41] Barry: So it’s really important. 

[00:26:43] Maryanne: Yeah. And a lovely acknowledgement of that turning point. So you then reinvested in your own health. You said you resumed yoga and an interest in looking after your…, what other things did you choose to do?  

[00:26:56] Barry: Just the basics of humanity, human connection, physical activity, self-improvement. What we lose when we get the press and what’s, it’s very easy to lose the curiosity. I believe that every day you should spend as much time as we can, being curious on how we can do better. Whether that’s in a conversation with a stranger, whether that’s our physical fitness, whether that’s our nutrition, whether it’s our breath work. So, I’d lost my curiosity and I didn’t believe I deserved curiosity. And that’s depression. But those micro steps slowly took me…, you don’t come back overnight. It took me about 12-18 months, but I was just continually curious on how I can do better. How I enjoy the walk. How can I do that better? I didn’t enjoy a difficult conversation, but I enjoyed what came after a difficult conversation. So then I tested myself and was more curious on how far I could go with difficult conversations, because the dividend, the reward for that was immense. Every single person is different.  

[00:27:58] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:27:58] Barry: And everybody’s not me. 

[00:28:00] Maryanne: No. 

[00:28:00] Barry: Everybody is themselves. So within yourself, you have to be curious on what makes you feel better. 

[00:28:07] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:28:07] Barry: What makes you respond better, and look for that dividend in that investment of curiosity. 

[00:28:13] Maryanne: But you know, people I support are often lost when they’re going through treatment or certainly post-transplant as they’re needing to rebuild their physical self. Their emotional self and their spiritual self.  

[00:28:28] Barry: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:28] Maryanne: Is there any, you say that you do some teachings and I love the word curiosity because I think it’s a gentle word in wanting to ignite something that people don’t necessarily think of. You know, some people, well, a lot of patients say to me, ‘I can’t stand it. When people say stay positive’. I don’t blame them.  

[00:28:45] Barry: Mmm. 

[00:28:45] Maryanne: You know. 

[00:28:45] Barry: I don’t say, I never say ‘stay positive.’ I say you can use any negative event as a stepping stone to a positive place if you want to, yeah. 

[00:28:55] Maryanne: Is there any words of wisdom that you could impart? Because I see you as someone who, you used a quote in a speech a while ago looking at buoyancy in the river of life. 

[00:29:10] Barry: I believe in that. I mean, I believe this journey we’re all on, and they’re all different. All our journeys are different, but I see it as a journey down the river of life. It’s a great terminology, and- 

[00:29:20] Maryanne: It is, it’s a gentle terminology too. 

[00:29:23] Barry: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you’ve got all, I just wanna go back to something you said before that, and it’s this, it’s not a weakness to feel pain. And it’s not a weakness to be nervous and be unsure, but…, and it’s definitely not a weakness to put your hands up and say, ‘hey, I’ve had enough at the moment.’ Boundaries are really important. 

[00:29:43] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:29:43] Barry: And if you can set boundaries and not expel your energy, you’ll give yourself energy by not giving that energy away.  

[00:29:52] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:29:52] Barry: But getting back to the river of life, and this is something I love to share. Most people that have been touched with cancer understand this. We go through eddies and turbulence and we go over rocks and even little waterfalls at times. But when you are given three months to live, what you’re given is the view of the waterfall of mortality. That you can see three months away, in 90 days away, that’s that waterfall. And when I go over that, this river is over. I’m finished. What you’ll find yourself doing is backpedaling as quick as you can. But you’ll be ultra curious on how you can spend more time before you get to the waterfall and what you find is that if you lean into difficult things, you get a buoyancy of resilience. 

[00:30:40] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:40] Barry:  And when you have a buoyancy of resilience it does what it says. You float higher in the river. And because you’re curious and now you’re floating higher, there’s more things you can see. That will help another minute. That will help another day. But also you have sunshine on your chest. And that’s a warmth that radiates right through your body when there’s the coldness of lone… when you’re in that coldness of loneliness but you’ve lent into something difficult and you’ve born resilience out of it, now you have a bit more sun on your chest. And I often say I wish everybody could see the waterfall of mortality, but not have to go through the same circumstances I did. Because I just think that we’d all respect our lives and the beauty of life more if we understood that it’s gonna end one day. And I don’t think anybody… I don’t think the average people get to understand that the same way as people that are going through the cancer experience do. 

[00:31:30] Maryanne: Oh, I think you’re right there. I remember a psychologist who was given her last rights and that’s now 10 years ago, and she said. ‘We’re all mortal, but what I have is an awareness of my mortality and what I choose to do with it makes all the difference.’ And that beautiful visualisation you’ve just captured perfectly there. It offers someone… because we all have a visual, you know, we all have an inner head talk. We all have a, a mindset, and I’m a great believer in that. The mind is a powerful tool. 

[00:32:01] Barry: Definitely. 

[00:32:01] Maryanne:  I’ve seen it demonstrated again and again. And to embrace some kind of visualisation that you can anchor yourself or hook into. I think is a real strength and certainly that river of life that you’ve just described beautifully. Well, I had the vision in my head so thank you Barry. 

[00:32:19] Barry: The anchor of life is really important as one as well. I find the average person that does my course, they’re very quick to forgive other people. 

[00:32:27] Maryanne: Yeah. 

[00:32:27]  Barry: Or forgive things as…, but they find difficulty in forgiving themselves. And I think if we can learn to forgive ourselves for some of the things that…, I always say I’ve never done, I’ve never made a mistake. There’s just a lot of things I won’t do again.  

[00:32:40] Maryanne: A gentler way instead of persecuting yourself from mistakes. 

[00:32:43] Barry: Yeah, because that’s, again, it’s a negative energy and you’ll get no return from it. And there’s nothing wrong with protecting yourself. Mothers particularly will do anything to protect their children from anything. 

[00:32:54] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:32:54] Barry: But, they refuse to protect themselves. And refuse to just take that little step that says you deserve a rest.  

[00:33:01] Maryanne: Yes. 

[00:33:01] Barry: And when you do that, that’s preventative medicine as far as I’m concerned, as well. Preventative medicine is really important. It’s very hard to qualify. 

[00:33:11] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:11] Barry: But if you are doing your best for yourself, if you’re filling your cup, and then you’re pouring that love and affection on others because you are yourself self love. I just feel whether it doesn’t give you an extra day or not, you’ll live better days up until that moment. 

[00:33:31] Maryanne: Absolutely. You mentioned that you do yoga, Barry. 

[00:33:31] Barry: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:32] Maryanne: And what are some other things that you chose to do? 

[00:33:35] Barry: It’s interesting you say that. I’ve done an incredible amount of yoga. I have done yoga for about six months. I’m continually, because we are always changing. 

[00:33:43] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:43] Barry: Summer, winter, when the children are on holidays, I’m at the beach. I live right next to the beach, but I spend time with my children every second I can. When I’m in a hotel room with work, I will do yoga and meditation.  

[00:33:58] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:33:58] Barry: There’s no steadfast itinerary- 

[00:34:01] Maryanne: No. 

[00:34:01] Barry: Of self love. It’s little things. I’ll give you a great example of what I do and I, I actually look forward to it. When I’m traveling with work, and not everybody has to travel with work, but you can get lonely pretty quick. Okay. But I have on my phone every time something that’s really special happens in my life, I just do a little dictation to the notes of my phone and I’ll give you a classic example of that. Well, it’s over a year now, over 18 months ago now. My beautiful daughter now just so everybody knows. The year after I got the first cancer. My beautiful twins were born through surrogacy in India. So that was seven attempts of surrogacy and we were lucky on our seventh attempt. So I have two beautiful children and we’re just so blessed with that. 

[00:34:48] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:34:48] Barry: But my beautiful Arabella had an interview with her headmistress at the new high school she was going to. And like every parent, every doting parent, you’re nervous about the answers she’s gonna make to these questions. You know, I dunno if you’ve been through it. 

[00:35:01] Maryanne: Yes. 

[00:35:01] Barry: But for me, it was a lot of pressure. And the teacher would ask her questions and I had ‘bang.’ I’ve got the answers that you’ll say this and you’ll say that. And Arabella really pondered each question so carefully. I know now in hindsight, she listened to them not just with her ears, but with her heart and she answered every question so beautifully. After that meeting, I quickly dictated into my notes how beautifully empathetic my daughter is…, 

[00:35:31] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:31] Barry: And how proud I am of her and, and her care for others. And I could see that and so could the headmistress see that just from the, the thought that she put into her answers.  

[00:35:43] Maryanne: Oh. 

[00:35:43] Barry: So there was this occasion only a couple months after that. I’m in a hotel, I’m on my own. We’ve worked all day and it’s downtime, but you know, the minibar’s there. So in my case, that’s chocolates, and I don’t wanna be doing that. So what I do is I get out my notes and then I relive that beautiful moment of watching her in that interview. So then I write a letter. I wrote a letter to her about that moment. 

[00:36:08] Maryanne: Oh. 

[00:36:08] Barry: And then on the stationary in the hotel, I put it in an envelope and I have the reception send it to my daughter. So, and I’ve done that with my wife, my best friends, I’ve sent hundreds of those letters. Now what I get to do then, when there’s a down moment in my life, I could do that here in my office as well. I look for something that was a.., like if I’m having a down day, the gas bill, the mortgage payment, and a shit result all came through on the same day, well, that’s a bad day. That’s a negative. 

[00:36:36] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:36] Barry: But I’ve got plenty of positives I can lean into. So I go to my notes and I say, yeah, that’s the one I’m gonna relive that moment, I’m gonna write a letter about that moment and tell my daughter how much I love her. And how proud I am of her empathy and her care for other people and how selfless she is. And I hope she maintains that her whole life. And then I send it. So then three days later, she opens that and we get to live that experience again. 

[00:37:03] Maryanne: I love that. 

[00:37:03] Barry: So when you’ve got these beautiful precious moments, cherish them. Because when you’re at that waterfall of mortality…, 

[00:37:11] Maryanne: Yes. 

[00:37:11] Barry: They’re the things you’ll be thinking about. 

[00:37:13] Maryanne: Absolutely 

[00:37:15] Barry: You won’t be thinking about how big your house is. You’ll be thinking about how beautifully empathetic your daughter is. So reward yourself with that as many times as you can. 

[00:37:24] Maryanne: What a gift that you gave to Arabella. 

[00:37:27] Barry: It’s a gift to me, because I get to relive the experience and then with her I really… and then she’ll share it with a friend. I’ll be walking down the hallway and I, I mean I’ve sent her at least 20 letters, but they’ll say, ‘what’s that box?’ She’ll say, ‘that’s the letters from my dad,’ and she reads them happily. And my best friend has done that, my wife, lots of my friends. When people have lost loved ones, I find the letter as an incredible, powerful thing to send. Because I get to relive the beautiful memories I remember of that person with someone else that loves that person.  

[00:38:01] Maryanne: Well, that is a beautiful golden nugget to give forward. 

[00:38:04] Barry: So, so that’s one  

[00:38:05] Maryanne: That’s one of many, but oh. 

[00:38:07] Barry: Yeah. Meditation, walking in sun. I love breath work.  

[00:38:10] Maryanne: What does breath work look like? 

[00:38:12] Barry: Actually I will share with your listeners my breath work video. It’s just about centering your brain, connecting with your own humanity, with your own breath. And when we do a breath work, we just limit the amount of things that are in our mind. We do a couple of things. We give our mind a rest…, 

[00:38:28] Maryanne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:28] Barry: But we also rebalance the oxygen and carbon dioxide levels in our lungs. So we’re doing a physically good thing. We’re doing a mindfully good thing there. And we’re just giving ourselves the right to relax for three minutes. And um, I’ll put a link to the video for sure. 

[00:38:45] Maryanne: Yeah, that’s lovely Barry. Like quite the spiritual share in many ways. ‘Cause spirituality doesn’t necessarily have to be attached to a religion. 

[00:38:53] Barry: No, no, it’s your own thing as well. Some people might not like any of the things I do. Some people might like going to church and praying. That’s your thing. That’s what you do. If you are getting a return on that investment, take it.  

[00:39:05] Maryanne: Yeah. 

[00:39:05] Barry: But if you’re not getting a return on something and you’re doing it. You’ve gotta ask yourself, ‘What am I getting back for this?’ ‘How is this increasing my wellbeing?’ and ‘What do I have to give up if I do this?’  

[00:39:17] Maryanne: Mmm. 

[00:39:17] Barry: If you have to give up the hustle and bustle of life to sit in and pray for three minutes, sit and pray for three minutes. In my case, it’s meditation and, or breath work or writing a letter. Simply going for a walk. I’ve got some great free resource… I’ve got three minute resources on my website. Anybody can download anytime. 

[00:39:35] Maryanne: Oh well, we’ll have to um, add that to the links as well, Barry, because you certainly look…, and what you’ve shared here this morning has really captured some wonderful, wonderful suggestions for people who are maybe struggling. There’s a lot of people who don’t know where to start, and I think this is what Talking Blood Cancer offers. It’s these organic conversations where people who have had the lived experience can share what worked for them  

[00:40:01] Barry: If you’re going through cancer, there’s a lot of struggle. 

[00:40:04] Maryanne: Yeah. 

[00:40:05] Barry: There’s a lot of struggle. It’s really hard. But know this from me. And I lived my life with cancer. I lived with an incurable blood disease. Know this. These difficult moments that you are looking at or reflecting on or feeling now are stepping stones to a better place. You will thrive again. If you concentrate on the thrive and you concentrate that they’re steps, they’re not your life, they’re just steps to your life. That will help you get there quicker and be forever curious on how you can take the next micro step forward. 

[00:40:38] Maryanne: I love that Barry. Look, thank you for joining me here this morning. I think you’ve certainly shared your vulnerability moments and you’ve given some lovely suggestions for people to walk forward with. So, I’m grateful that you’re our ambassador. I think you’re a tremendous role model for many. I wish you all the very best for this festive season. So, thank you.  

[00:41:00] Barry: And thank you and love and strength to all your listeners and yourself. Take it easy and be curious how you can be better. 

[00:41:06] Maryanne: I love that. Thank you.