Overcoming multiple adversity: Nicole Sanzo’s powerful story of resilience and hope

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:02:37] Kate: Hi there, and welcome to Talking Blood Cancer. I am your host Kate, and today I have a really lovely guest here with me today, and I’m very honored to have her on our podcast. I will let her introduce herself, but as we always do, we ask our guests to let us know who they are, what they had were diagnosed with, how old they were, and where they’re living in Australia. So, I’ll hand it over to you.

[00:02:59] Nicole: Thanks so much, Kate. I appreciate you having me on the podcast today and really nice to meet you as well. I’m Nicole. I am currently living in Melbourne, Victoria, and I was diagnosed with ALL, so acute lymphoblastic leukaemia when I was four, turning five years old. Back in 2001 now. And during my journey I’ve actually been diagnosed with a few other cancers along the way. But yeah, that’s sort of where it all began. So excited to speak with you.

[00:03:30] Kate: Thank you so much for sharing that. And as you’ve alluded to, you’ve had quite a path to get here. So, I’m really excited to have this conversation and I guess being the storyteller that I am, I’d love to kind of hear if you have memories of what was happening around the age of four or five. Maybe, was it your parents that took you to the doctor or what kind of led you to a diagnosis? 

[00:03:52] Nicole: Yeah, so around that age, even a bit before, I was really sick. Like I was constantly getting like infections, I was getting all sorts of things. I had like really bad asthma. I ended up in hospital like on a…, I don’t…, not sure what it’s called, but like a ventolin machine?

[00:04:06] Kate: Oh, a nebulizer?

[00:04:06] Nicole: Yeah. I think it stemmed from like a bronchitis sort of episode. But after that I just constantly was getting unwell and, we went on a family holiday as well to Queensland at the time. And yeah, the whole time I was there, like I was pale, like I was sick. I had really bad fatigue and things like that, so my parents they must have thought like ‘kids, you know, they get sick all the time’. But yeah, I was always taken to the hospital to emergency to see what was going on. 

[00:04:33] Kate: Yeah.

[00:04:33] Nicole: And during that time as well…, so once I came back from the holiday, I would’ve gone back to the hospital and they sort of, ran tests. I mean, I had fevers and things as well. I even was getting like bruises on my legs, so there was like, symptoms, showing up there as well. But my parents, I guess they wouldn’t have thought, worst case scenario, but yeah, ended up in the emergency.

[00:04:55] Kate: Wow. 

[00:04:55] Nicole: I was actually…, So I was born in Aubrey, so from Country Victoria originally, or Albury–Wodonga. And 

[00:05:04] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:04] Nicole: Yeah there, I guess it’s not very common to have sort of a leukaemia diagnosis. So yeah, ended up at the hospital there. They weren’t too sure what was going on. had like a pediatrician who sort of said in the end, ‘I think like, it is leukaemia’. But to be sure, like I needed to have a lumbar puncture to confirm diagnosis, which in the country they didn’t do those sort of procedures. So I had to come, think it was pretty much the next day to Melbourne to have that procedure done, which then did conclude, I had ALL leukaemia at the time. So yeah, I sort of, a whole array of, symptoms…,

[00:05:39] Kate: Yeah.

[00:05:39] Nicole: Leading up to that time, but yeah. 

[00:05:40] Kate: Absolutely. But clearly your parents, you know, parental instinct, must have really said to them, something’s not right with our little girl, and to lead you to take you to the hospital.

[00:05:51] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. because I think like with all my symptoms I was having, they kept taking me there and they didn’t think it would be something that was gonna change, you know, the next couple of years.

[00:06:01] Kate: Yeah, the trajectory.

[00:06:01] Nicole:  Yeah, it was just all the symptoms I was getting. ‘Cause I was constantly ill and like I have three sisters as well. And like, they weren’t sick all the time like I was, even when I was quite young I was sick. So I think it was just like a, a buildup to that sort of moment that yeah, it was just, very shocking for them ’cause not what they sort of were expecting.

[00:06:22] Kate: Absolutely not. Do you have any memory? Being a little person in the hospital at that point in time at all? 

[00:06:30] Nicole: Yeah. So I actually remember like when I was going in and out of emergency, like even when I was on the ventolin machine at that point, I remember not wanting to be in there. 

[00:06:40] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:40] Nicole: But once I got the diagnosis and went to Melbourne the next day, I remember the car trip down here. So I went to the Royal Children’s Hospital in Melbourne. I remember getting there and then saying to my mum, I felt like I was in jail. 

[00:06:51] Kate: Oh, really?

[00:06:53] Nicole: Yeah. So I remember like all that sort of situation. I don’t remember everything super clear, but I think maybe more so like the traumatic…

[00:07:02] Kate: Yeah.

[00:07:02] Nicole: …parts of the journey over the two years that I went through. So yeah, it was…, I have like bits and pieces, but it’s amazing, at that age

[00:07:12] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:12] Nicole: What you sort of do remember?

[00:07:13] Kate: Yeah. And to what you associate with, you know, you say jail, you think, well, when I think of jail, I think of being stuck and locked in, and knowing what I know of a treatment journey, you very much are stuck and locked in a hospital like you can’t leave. And so it’s interesting that you drew that, you know, you as a little person even drew that…

[00:07:32] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:32] Kate: …connection. Yeah, and you still hold that today.

[00:07:34] Nicole: Definitely.

[00:07:35] Kate: And then what happened for you during treatment? Did you just have some rounds of chemo or did you go through a bone marrow transplant? Or anything like that?

[00:07:44] Nicole: Um, so with my treatment, so it went from 2001 to 2003, so it was over a two year period, so I didn’t have a bone marrow transplant. 

[00:07:53] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:53] Nicole: I was lucky in that sense that I didn’t have to go down that path, but in saying that, I still had, it would’ve been over 10 rounds of chemo, over two years, both IV and oral chemo…

[00:08:05] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:05] Nicole: And then I guess along the time that you’re having chemo, they do other procedures to see I guess where the cancer’s sort of at and what other things they need to do. But I was in the hospital probably most of the time for the first year, and then the second year I was back and forth between Melbourne and then Wodonga, where my parents were living and my sisters. 

[00:08:27] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:28] Nicole: So yeah, it was very like full on in that first year. And then the second year was quite hard as well ’cause I was, starting school as well. So still having some form of treatment, but, yeah, very full on I would say over those two years.

[00:08:42] Kate: Yeah. I imagine. Do you recall how it was for you being separated, like, did your sister stay at home and did one parent stay at home and you had somebody in hospital with you?

[00:08:52] Nicole: Yeah, so my mom actually stayed in the hospital most of the time that I was there. And, like back then, in like 2001, they didn’t really have the setup that they probably do now. So she just had like one of those, armchair sort of recliners in the hospital next to me. She would stay overnight and everything, and be there in the morning. We were sort of with the other sisters back and forth, with them. So we were lucky that…

[00:09:16] Kate: Mm-hmm

[00:09:16] Nicole: …the Royal Children’s Hospital had the Ronald Mac house. So they spent a bit of time there. So I have a younger sister and two older, so my younger sister at the time…

[00:09:25] Kate: Mmm.

[00:09:25] Nicole: …was quite young. So they were at the Ronald Mac house a lot of the time or they were back at my parents’ house and we had relatives as well that helped out. And yeah, it was, it was a tough time.

[00:09:35] Kate: Did you have any sense of like, how was it when you returned home with your siblings or being able to be with your siblings again? Did you feel that pull or even when you were in hospital, that loss of, ‘Oh, I, I just wanna connect back with my siblings?’ Or what you didn’t know, you didn’t know?

[00:09:50] Nicole: I feel like, ’cause they would send me home sometimes where, you know, I’d have like the oral chemo and then I’d also have like injections as well at home that my mum would sort of administer to me. 

[00:10:02] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:02] Nicole: So yeah, I think I was just, I don’t know, I was so out of it that going back home, I never felt that well, being back home. There was times I had to go into the hospital ’cause I had like an infection pop up being neutropenic a lot of the time. And yeah, I had a couple of times where I had sepsis and things, so being back with the family, like, it was just like it was good. But I think a lot of the time I was just so out of it. I was just in bed, like relaxing and yeah, not being able to do the things you would at…

[00:10:31] Kate: Yeah.

[00:10:31] Nicole: …that sort of age, I suppose.

[00:10:32] Kate: Yeah. Being a part of being back in the home, but not, as you say, not being able to participate the way that a four, five-year-old would as well.

[00:10:40] Nicole: Definitely, yeah, it’s quite a journey, like reflecting back that, you know, back then that, yeah, I couldn’t really do those sorts of things. Yeah. 

[00:10:49] Kate: Mm. And you mentioned you were starting school at that time. In year two of your cancer treatment journey. Did you do homeschool, or did you do hospital school, or were you able to go and visit your class? 

[00:11:02] Nicole: Yeah, so, ’cause in the second year I wasn’t at the Royal Children’s as often. I was able to go to school. 

[00:11:08] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:08] Nicole: But I, I actually remember a lot of it that I was like, even when I’d get into like year one, two, I’d reflect and be like, I just feel like…, so I’d miss a lot of school ’cause I’d have to have treatment, I didn’t feel well. I, like, whenever I’d go to school, I just didn’t wanna be there. I was like really upset. And I was still having the oral chemo, so…, It’s wild looking back, but they would like administer the oral chemo to me at school. 

[00:11:31] Kate: Really? 

[00:11:32] Nicole: Yeah, back then. I’m so surprised looking back now that I know what, you know, chemo is, that I was able to go to school and have that sort of administered to me. But I feel like a lot of the time, like I have memories where just brain fog. And I had a lot of issues with learning and things like that. I think ’cause with, you know, 

[00:11:54] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:54] Nicole: The heavy chemo and things, it sort of affected that. And yeah, the friendship side of things was hard as well. So yeah, and then year one, was, yeah, quite tough ’cause I was still having that treatment, but able to still go into school and integrate, which was good.

[00:12:09] Kate: Yeah, and it sounds, you know, you think, and you’re reflective of when somebody is transitioning into school and they’re well and healthy, that it already is a really big transition in itself. And then to throw a diagnosis on top. And it sounds like, you know, you were back and forth, and especially living rurally as well, that if you had to go back to Melbourne or you were still having chemotherapy, just that constant push-pull between environments. I envision would’ve been quite jarring for a little person. 

[00:12:42] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. I think, being like in school, like even the fatigue, like the fatigue was really tough and I think I also missed out on that period before entering school where you have those social communications. So yeah, it was quite tough having to go to school, but then making it harder, not being able to form those connections. ‘Cause I was in and out of school, with the leukemia. So yeah, it was quite tough, having to integrate…, 

[00:13:07] Kate: Mmm.

[00:13:07] Nicole: And sort of make friends, learning as well. Like I just always felt so behind in that year and yeah, you just, you sort of feel different, I would say, to other students. 

[00:13:18] Kate: And you didn’t have hair. 

[00:13:19] Nicole: Yeah, exactly. I, I barely, I think yeah, maybe the second year it started to grow back a little bit ’cause change of chemo and whatnot. But in saying that, like I had really short hair. It was curly, it was all sorts of ways. So, you know, everyone has their nice long hair most of the time and yeah, I just felt different from when I entered school.

[00:13:38] Kate: Yeah. And do you think too, that sometimes, you know, as an adult now, and knowing the age that you were, is there the sense of the feeling rather than actually knowing, oh, you felt really different. Or for you being able to pull those memories forward today, is there more just a sense of going, I just know that felt really awkward, or, I know that that was a really difficult time, but in essence, your body and your brain remembers, I guess, those experiences.

[00:14:05] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. I feel like reflecting, especially with like the learning things, ’cause I didn’t know any different at that age, so I was sort of thinking, you know, why am I like this? Like from a young age I’d be like, why can’t I make these sort of connections with people? Even learning, like I always was like, why am I not as up to speed with everyone? And yeah, I think I was hard on myself in those areas from when I was quite young. ‘Cause the reality is I did have leukaemia. So as an adult, like, looking back…

[00:14:33] Kate: Mmm, yeah?

[00:14:33] Nicole: I’m like, I did have a different experience to what most kids would. So trying to fit in and things and communicate and everything like that was just, tough. So I think that also led into adult life as well. 

[00:14:47] Kate: Yeah, you know what? I love what you just reflected on ’cause it’s almost like that sense, I don’t know if you’ve seen it go on social media where you, what you would write to your 5-year-old self or your 12-year-old self that you are now. And you, as you say, as an adult, you have so much grace and empathy for that little person knowing the challenges that you are facing. But as you say, while you were in that moment, you had such self doubt. And in an age of five, and even really young primary school really, let’s be honest, all of high school goes into adulthood. You are always, sometimes judging yourself against other marks of people or other, successes that run into life, and you had a mighty challenge.

[00:15:26] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. Didn’t just start there. 

[00:15:28] Kate: No. And did you have supports around you, like as in counseling or OT or play therapy or, even tutoring to help you during your schooling? 

[00:15:39] Nicole: Well, in primary school I had, so I didn’t have counseling, but looking back I’m like, I feel like if I had that sort of support, it probably would have helped. 

[00:15:48] Kate: Yeah.

[00:15:49] Nicole: But with the learning side of things, the school did have like a support, like a teacher aid, person that they would take me out of class and do like reading and writing sort of exercises. And I did in high school a little bit, have some help as well with like tutoring and things. 

[00:16:07] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:07] Nicole: But yeah, in those early years, like it was more so year one, year two I would get taken outta class quite regularly…, 

[00:16:13] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:13] Nicole: Just to help me with like, reading and writing side of things. But yeah, I guess back then, like I feel like there’s so many advances now compared to then on the help and things. 

[00:16:23] Kate: Yes. 

[00:16:23] Nicole: That I think if it was now it would be different, but yeah, I, I just had more so the learning support side of things.

[00:16:30] Kate: Well, did you have any moments of defiance? If I asked your mum, would she go, oh, Nicole kicked up a stink of accessing those learning supports or anything like that? I’m just thinking of parents who may potentially are listening. To going, it’s not always easy to get a child to accept those, you know, extra supports when they’re in school ’cause they don’t want to be felt different or seen to be taken out of class and things like that. 

[00:16:54] Nicole: Yeah, I definitely think I did kick up a stink because I felt like being, you know, taken outta class all the time. I felt, yeah, it did feel different. Because I was like, why is no one else getting taken out? I was like, I don’t wanna go to school. But I guess it was more so like they would say that, you know, it’s to help me. ‘Cause I was feeling like I was behind in reading, writing, even like communication. Like I was very quiet. I didn’t engage much in class, which comes back, I guess, to everything that’s happened at the time. I think it’s just something you have to stay strong and explain the reason behind it. Because as a child you don’t…, 

[00:17:31] Kate: Yeah.

[00:17:31] Nicole: …really know what is going on entirely. Like you don’t know what leukaemia is, you don’t know…,

[00:17:36] Kate: Yeah.

[00:17:36] Nicole: …why this is happening. So, it helps you in the long run. Definitely like to get up to speed. So I think it’s just explaining, like in simpler terms, what’s sort of going on and that it is gonna help you.

[00:17:48] Kate: Really true. And ’cause little people, they have such a, an in-the-now view and an in-the-now moment that, I can envision you little Nicole, were thinking, I don’t wanna be, you know, be pulled outta class and to miss out on my friends or that connection. But then again, not seeing the whole picture as to how it all should come, why we’re doing this, to help it come together and to have things flow easier for you as well.

[00:18:11] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. And I think the school was quite good in terms of like I had two different support people. So there was the teacher aid and there was another lady who would take me out with like a couple of friends, like more so in year one and two.

[00:18:23] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:23] Nicole: And yeah, they would bring us all, so it wasn’t just me coming out of the class. So it was more…,

[00:18:28] Kate: That’s beautiful.

[00:18:29] Nicole: Yeah, inclusive. ‘Cause I think when it was just me getting taken out, I felt more left out and like why this was sort of happening. I didn’t really understand. But yeah, when I would go out with the other lady and she would take a couple of friends and we’d do activities then yeah, that was nice. 

[00:18:45] Kate: And I bet that would help with your social connection as well, if you were already somebody that was quite quiet and then in one and two, those friendships it can be so hot and cold at any moment. So if you were taken out for a couple of weeks, ’cause you were ill or whatnot, it would be hard for you to make those bonds, I imagine, for, with friends. 

[00:19:03] Nicole: Yeah, definitely it was, quite challenging I think in those early years, trying to make friends…,

[00:19:08] Kate: Mmm.

[00:19:08] Nicole: I think as well, ’cause I guess being from a small town, like people sort of talk. So you have like the parents, they probably say like amongst themselves and the kids catch on, so they would sort of be like, ‘oh, like she’s sick’ sort of thing. And yeah, so there was like that as well where, I don’t know, as a young child, I felt almost like embarrassed that, I was ill and everyone else was like healthy as such. So yeah, I guess there was a few challenges there as well, in the social aspect to deal with. 

[00:19:34] Kate: And how did you overcome those? 

[00:19:36] Nicole: I think just…, I had to keep going , like pushing on, like staying strong essentially. 

[00:19:42] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:42] Nicole: I was lucky that over the years I was able to form a good group of friends, which led into like my later years of primary school. But yeah, I think it’s just having that support system. If I didn’t have that support system and people around me, I think it would’ve been a lot tougher. But yeah, I just had to keep telling myself I have to keep going. Even as an adult, when things get tough, I’m just like, just have to keep going. Like, you know, you’ve been through this in the past, so you know, you’ve just gotta stay strong and keep pushing on.

[00:20:10] Kate: That’s amazing for you to have that as a, you know, as somebody in, primary school. And I bet that that’s also a credit to your upbringing as well and your outlook. It’s, to have that mindset, ’cause you are right there are moments in life that get handed to us that we can’t control, and the choice that we have is to one foot in front of the other. And you’re very right. You’ve just gotta push through as well. Not easy.

[00:20:33] Nicole: No.

[00:20:33]  Kate: …At every point in time. 

[00:20:34] Nicole: Definitely not. 

[00:20:35] Kate: Yeah. So when treatment stopped for you, I envision you would’ve gone through some maintenance therapy. How was life? How was life post that?

[00:20:43] Nicole: Yeah, so I definitely think at a young age, you don’t really realise like it stops. 

[00:20:48]  Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:48] Nicole: And then I was having, I think at first, it might have been six monthly checkups, but I was able to… So there was a clinic in Albury that had one of the oncologists from Melbourne that would come down, I think it was every six to 12 months.

[00:21:04]  Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:04] Nicole: And I would go and see him, for those checkups. So I think it was the first 10 years I had to have ongoing checkups, blood tests as well, just to make sure like, you know, all the cells were acting correctly. And yeah, once I got to that 10 year mark, I was sort of released. But when treatment finished, I think that’s a gap in the hospital system that they say, you know, you’re normal now. Like you can just go and enjoy your life, that’s the challenge that I sort of faced cause I didn’t realise like the impact that those treatments had on me…

[00:21:37] Kate: Yeah.

[00:21:37] Nicole: …going forward.  Like the fatigue and the brain fog and learning as well…., difficulties. So, I compared myself to other people, like other kids, and I thought I was, you know, completely normal as such, like treatment’s finished…, 

[00:21:50] Kate:  Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:51] Nicole: But yeah, definitely ongoing challenges and integrating back into normal life. It’s definitely a challenge.

[00:21:58] Kate: And I wonder too, as a young person at that age, did you even have the words, you know, ‘brain fog’, or did you even understand why you’re feeling tired or why movements were harder than others? Did your family speak about that or is it only now that you can connect those dots? 

[00:22:15] Nicole: Yeah, I definitely feel like the learning side of things, I always was like raising my voice, saying I feel like I’m behind. Like I’m really struggling…,

[00:22:22] Kate:  Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:22] Nicole: I couldn’t focus very well. So I think that side of things I sort of related to the treatment. But the fatigue, like I had that even now, like I still struggle with the fatigue and the brain fog and things. But it was only as I got older that I realised, hang on a minute, like I went through two years of chemo essentially. And…,

[00:22:42] Kate:  Yeah, you did.

[00:22:42 Nicole:  Yeah, I was like, sometimes I just have to wake myself up. But yeah, I didn’t realise that. Like going through school up until like I was 18, like high school, I never would’ve joined the dots and thought, hang on a minute, because everyone always said I was essentially normal. Like, you finished treatment, you are all good now, just go on with your life sort of thing. So yeah, I never, never connected the dots. But I think there definitely needs to be more like awareness around or like help with integrating back in to every day society. Because it is just, it is hard, like even as a child like it changes who you are as a person. So, definitely not until I got older. A lot of things sort of, aligned and I was like, it has to be to do with what I went through when I was younger. 

[00:23:24] Kate: Yeah. And I imagine too, like, although your sisters and things were also, part of your cancer diagnosis, you would also compare yourself, you know, I have no doubt to them as well to be like, ‘well they can do that’. And, you know, they’re running and jumping. And, as you say, the fatigue, that would’ve also been something you were constantly witness to as well. 

[00:23:44] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. And I think as well, like with my sisters, like they always were doing really well in school. And it didn’t matter how much I studied, I always struggled like I was fatigued all the time. 

[00:23:55] Kate: Yeah. 

[00:23:55] Nicole: Like I was tired and they weren’t as such, like as fatigued as I was. So I was always like, what is going on? But I never related it to the treatment or diagnosis that I went through. 

[00:24:04] Kate: Mmm.

[00:24:04] Nicole: So I think now as an adult I can be a bit more, um…, kinder to myself than…,

[00:24:10] Kate: Yeah.

[00:24:10] Nicole: I was back then. But yeah, it was hard, I guess, having sisters, who like…, hard for them too, but yeah, them being quite, you know, good at school and then also having a younger sister with similar age.

[00:24:22] Kate: Yeah.

[00:24:22] Nicole: So I was always like competing with her in a sense. We were very competitive towards each other, so…,

[00:24:29] Kate: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:29] Nicole: Yeah, that was very challenging as well. Especially with the school side of things. 

[00:24:32] Kate: Yeah, I bet. Another challenge for your parents to manage as well. 

[00:24:37] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. 

[00:24:38] Kate: Mmm. So you said you were…, checkups for 10 years. That’s, you know, such a long time to be in the medical system and as you say, being told, ‘Yep, you’re back, you’re normal. Go live life’. But it’s…, how do you live life post a diagnosis? And I know that you’ve kind of, alluded to that you had another diagnosis, in your journey. When did everything kind of unfold for you again?

[00:25:02] Nicole: Yeah. So I went on, I lived life, through school, I did sports. Essentially I was just living as if nothing happened. Like, that’s how I sort of had the mindset of…, Even though like, I had those underlying things in the background post-treatment.

[00:24:32] Kate: Yeah.

[00:25:02] Nicole: I, yeah, I was social, I was doing everything that sort of, everyone else was doing socially, like during high school and everything like that. And then, yeah, it was the end of year 12 when I was getting ill quite often. Like I had a lot of issues with my sinuses. I was getting headaches. I spent like a considerable time out of school. And actually it would’ve been the start of year 12, not the end, but I  went to an ENT, like an ears, nose, and throat specialist. ‘Cause I was having all these sinus sort of issues. 

[00:25:50] Kate: Mm-hmm

[00:25:50] Nicole: And yeah, again, being from the country, they take a bit of time to get into. And during that time I had my 18th birthday, so that was in April. 

[00:25:58] Kate: Yeah.

[00:25:58] Nicole: And a couple of days after I had felt like on the side of my neck, this lump that showed up and I was like, this is strange. And then one of my older sisters, she felt as well, she’s got a physio qualification. She’s like, ‘oh, like that doesn’t feel sort of right’. And me obviously having this previous diagnosis, I didn’t really think anything of it. I was like, ‘oh, you know, I’ll just go get it checked’. Like I’m going to the ears, nose, throat specialist anyways, and I’ll mention it. So I had all these scans.

[00:26:24] Kate: Was your parents accompanying you to these appointments? 

[00:26:26] Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My parents, drove me ’cause I didn’t have my license or anything. 

[00:26:30] Kate: Yeah.

[00:26:31] Nicole: Again, my parents are driving me and it’s just an ears, nose, throat specialist. Like anyone can go…

[00:26:36] Kate: Yeah.

[00:26:36] Nicole: …to them for those sort of issues. No one thought, something like a cancer or something will happen again. But, yeah, go there, get the scans that day, like straight away. The guy that I saw…, it was down in Melbourne, I had to go just, otherwise I had to wait like six to twelve months to get into one in Albury 

[00:26:51] Kate: Yeah. Again, that’s country living, isn’t it?

[00:26:54] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:26:54] Kate: And unfortunately, such a story we hear so often. The delay…, the delay to get into the doctor, and then the delay to a diagnosis. 

[00:27:02] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. So…, yeah, come down to Melbourne, got the scans that day. And then we had to wait for results I think., it might’ve been Easter or there was something around that time that they were like, ‘oh, they’ll probably be a couple of weeks’. Didn’t hear anything. So I was like, all’s good. And then I was like, I think it was to my dad or something. ’cause he would always call up for my results and things, around that time. And I was like, ‘I think like we need to see if there’s any like, result or anything’. So I’m still having these sinus issues and whatever else. So anyways, calls up and they’re like, ‘we need you to come in’, sort of thing. But they must have missed it in the notes. So we um, I think it was like a week or two later we came to Melbourne…

[00:27:41] Kate: Oh my God. 

[00:27:42] Nicole: I had to meet with a team there at the Royal Melbourne and yeah, they did like a few biopsies on the lump that had shown up. And yeah, the doctor that I saw, he was like, well, like he said to my parents, but he didn’t say it to me. That, you know, ‘I think something… like, this isn’t good, like, I don’t…’ They didn’t wanna freak me out, I guess. But yeah, I think it was about a week later. 

[00:28:03] Kate: What did your body feel like, being back in that space, being back in that hospital environment and having tests and being…, I guess, poked and prodded again? Was your body kinda giving you of any sense that…, ‘Hmm, something’s a bit different’. 

[00:28:16] Nicole: Yeah, it was really strange cause I was like, I’m 18, like I’ve had, previous cancer. Like I didn’t think anything of it. I was like ‘oh, like it’s probably just a benign sort of mass’. 

[00:28:25] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:25] Nicole: But, you know, we’ll get it looked at, we’ll get it removed or whatever I have to do. So that’s where, yeah, things sort of, took a turn once they were like, you know, ‘we need you to come in within the week to have a procedure done’. And yeah, the rest was sort of history from there. 

[00:28:40] Kate: And what did they discover in that?

[00:28:42] Nicole: Yeah. So I had this surgery, so it was meant to be a couple of hours. The surgery, they said, we think it’s benign, but we’ll make sure it’s not cancer or anything. So during the procedure they actually tested the mass during the procedure. So they sent it off to the lab while I was asleep and then…

[00:28:57] Kate: Yeah.

[00:28:57] Nicole: They called my parents while I was asleep and they were like, well, it is a cancer, essentially. So it was a mucoepidermoid carcinoma of like the parotid glands. So one of the salivary glands in the neck, stage one, grade one, like very early mass. And they said, ‘we have to partially remove the parotid gland and one of the salivary glands plus 40 lymph nodes’ in my neck. So…,

[00:29:21] Kate: Wow.

[00:29:21] Nicole: It ended up being a 14 hour procedure.

[00:29:24] Kate: You were under, you didn’t end up waking.

[00:29:25] Nicole: Yeah. So I went in, in the, I think it was about midday and I didn’t come out…, oh, it would’ve been, mid morning. And then came out at night, it’s dark outside. I’m in the hospital. I was just so confused when I woke up. I had no idea what was going on.

[00:29:36] Kate: I bet.

[00:29:37] Nicole: But my parents already knew and I woke up and I was like, what was it? Like?, I had everything sort of stitched up, like, I was very uncomfortable. And yeah. So the journey sort of began again with that diagnosis.

[00:29:50] Kate: Wow. And who told you that diagnosis? 

[00:29:52] Nicole: So I’m trying to think back if whether it was the doctor or my parents. I just feel like it’s such a blur because I was in such shock. 

[00:29:58] Kate: Well, you were in 14 hours…

[00:30:00] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:30:00] Kate: …of anesthetic. I… It would be a blur when you awake from that. 

[00:30:04] Nicole: Yes.

[00:30:04] Kate: Wow. And then what did that require? Treatment wise? 

[00:30:08] Nicole: Um, so yeah, I had the surgery. I was lucky in a sense, but I say it doesn’t matter what cancer it is. It’s all different for everyone. But I had the surgery, it took I think eight months for me to recover from that surgery. And yeah, it was, tough. I had like a lot of complications. So I had a lot of fluid building up ’cause they took like the salivary gland and the lymph nodes essentially out. It was, yeah, just the drainage of the fluid was just accumulating. So it took a long time for that to sort of…

[00:30:37] Kate: Yeah.

[00:30:38] Nicole: Go down and I guess readjust essentially to how the body should be working. 

[00:30:42] Kate: Yeah. 

[00:30:43] Nicole: Ummm.

[00:30:43] Kate: But eight months and in year 12?

[00:30:46] Nicole: Yeah, so I ended up actually redoing year 12 the year later, because I was like, I can’t do this. 

[00:30:51] Kate: Yeah. I was gonna say, you really bookend. Started a year, education journey was bumpy…,

[00:30:56] Nicole: Yes…

[00:30:57] Kate: And the end.

[00:30:57] Nicole: Exactly.

[00:30:57] Kate: You just did it like that.

[00:30:57] Nicole: But the school was very adamant. They were like, ‘We want you to come back’. You know, ‘We, we can work through it. Finish the year out’. And I was just, I just knew, I was like, I can’t, like, I could barely turn my neck. Like I couldn’t even…,

[00:31:09] Kate: Mmm, oh my God. 

[00:31:09] Nicole: ‘Cause the actual tumor was like on the main, nerve to the face. Like half of my smile, like I couldn’t smile properly for ages. 

[00:31:17] Kate: Wow.

[00:31:18] Nicole: Yeah, so I just had like physio and things. So yeah, I ended up just redoing year 12. 

[00:31:22] Kate: How did that impact you mentally? 

[00:31:24] Nicole: It definitely impacted me a lot. ‘Cause I had a good group of friends and then, I feel like I isolated myself a little bit because I felt like people. Like they understood, but they don’t at the same time. ‘Cause…,

[00:31:35] Kate: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:35] Nicole: I think with cancers it’s hard. Like it’s the same with any sort of illness, like chronic illness or cancers. You find the people that can sort of relate or understand. And then, yeah, there is the people that don’t, and being that age, not many people are gonna know anyone that’s gone through a cancer. So it’s, yeah.

[00:31:52] Kate: Let alone twice.

[00:31:53] Nicole: Exactly. So I feel like, yeah. It definitely felt like I was restarting again. I remember after the surgery I was very, like I had my moment of downfall where I was like, ‘not again’, sort of thing. 

[00:32:04] Kate: Mmm, yeah. 

[00:32:05] Nicole: But, I had that one. And there was a few other bumps down the road as well.

[00:32:08] Kate: Did it unlock any, I guess, trauma or memories for you, from your leukaemia diagnosis that you potentially hadn’t processed, thought of?

[00:32:18] Nicole: Well I feel, yeah, it sort of did because I was like, oh, I don’t understand like how this has happened. Like, there’s no relation, like it’s a totally different diagnosis. So it just unreleased everything. I was like, I’m not the type of person to be ‘poor me’. Like I don’t really like, to have that attention on me, but I just, I felt for myself at that time. I was like this is really tough. Like why in the pivotal part of me about to finish school with all my friends, graduate, I’ve essentially had to go through this again.

[00:32:46] Kate: And life I envision, you know, you said you had over eight months recovery, stopped again. 

[00:32:51] Nicole: Yeah, exactly. So it was hard. Like I tried to go back to normal things but I’d always have pain or like fluid buildup. And yeah, it was just, everything stopped for those eight months. And like I had just turned 18, so like all my friends are going out, enjoying and I’m sort of like, ‘oh, I would love to be doing those sort of things’. And it was just, yeah, it was a hard, I would even say just that year, it was just, yeah, very tough. 

[00:33:13] Kate: I know it’s almost like your wings. You turn 18. I know you’re in high school still, but your wings, you’re getting ready to fly and then they were clipped again. And I envision you needed more support from your family, your parents, to rely on physically, mentally as well. When you almost at that age, you have that itch just to be free…

[00:33:32] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. 

[00:33:32] Kate: …And you had to stop.

[00:33:34] Nicole: Yeah, I definitely had to rely on my parents and things. So yeah, I felt like, I was trapped, I guess, in a way, because I had to rely on other people. And I think, yeah, it’s one of those things where you do, but you feel, at least for me, I feel guilty. I’m like to do things myself, even around the house, when I was living with my parents, and yeah, it was one of those things I was like, I, actually sometimes, ’cause my neck was so stiff, I was like, I just need to stay in bed for the day, or, not do too much that day. 

[00:33:59] Kate: Yeah.

[00:33:59] Nicole: So yeah, I had to rely on them a lot more than I sort of would’ve liked. But yeah, you sort of feel trapped.

[00:34:05] Kate: Yeah. You almost had to surrender to the moment as to what was happening for you. 

[00:34:10] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. So I think, it takes a bit, for reality hitting, like set in. I think at first it’s like a shock. You’re like, oh my God, like what’s going on? And then the reality sets in and you’re like, I just have to keep going. And each day is a new day, so little steps and it does get better.

[00:34:26] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:26] Nicole: But it’s hard to see that at the time. But I guess for me, like I didn’t really know anyone else that had like cancers, during childhood or even the teen sort of years. So yeah, it was very hard to relate there. 

[00:34:40] Kate: Yeah. Isolating, I imagine too. 

[00:34:43] Nicole: Yes. 

[00:34:43] Kate: And as you say, in a small country town as well, it would’ve been feeling quite isolating again. 

[00:34:49] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. 

[00:34:50] Kate: So what else happened for you? You took eight months and you repeated high school. I mean that is an incredible effort in itself and I can imagine it wouldn’t have been easy to start year 12 with a different cohort of people. And let’s be honest, no doubt you were still recovering and feeling the side effects and having medical appointments as well. How then has life unfolded post that? 

[00:35:12] Nicole: Yeah, so I actually ended up doing distance education for my final year 12. ‘Cause I was like, I just felt so uncomfortable going back to school with like a new cohort. Like I already, because I was at a small school as well, so there was only about 50 students in the year level. 

[00:35:27] Kate: Okay. 

[00:35:27] Nicole: So I felt like going back into that same school I was like, I just, emotionally couldn’t do it. I was like, I’ve just gotta do it from home. But I wanted to complete year 12. Like, that was just something I wanted to do. I was like, I’ll try my best, but yeah…,

[00:35:39] Kate: Yeah.

[00:35:39] Nicole: …still struggling. so I finished year 12. I ended up connecting with people that I had previously been friends with in school. So I feel like I did lose a lot of connections ’cause I sort of isolated myself during that time. Like eight months and to a year where I was recovering. And yeah, I was, 18, turning 19, and I just reconnected. I ended up having a mindset that I just, want to, you know, enjoy life and go out with my friends, you know, on the weekends and have a dance and enjoy. 

[00:36:09] Kate: Yeah.

[00:65:10] Nicole: So yeah, I did that. I got a job, started working, just casually at Kmart actually. So yeah, everything was like, looking really good. 

[00:36:20] Kate: Can I ask, was it hard for your parents to let go again? Or how did you guys balance that?

[00:36:25] Nicole: I feel like they’re the type of people that won’t say it, but you know, that to see their child go through something like this, like it’s not easy. And I think it would be hard for any parent, as well to not think that it’s, they’ve done something or they can also blame themselves, I believe…,

[00:36:41] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:41] Nicole: …with the whole situation. But in reality, like they haven’t done anything, like, it’s just been pure, unlucky situation that I’ve sort of had to go through.

[00:36:50] Kate: Yeah.

[00:36:50] Nicole: So yeah, they don’t openly, express it. But I definitely think…, yeah. It’s tough. 

[00:36:55] Kate: I imagine, and I think, tough too to then to have to let you go out into the world again you know, without I guess their guidance or go, oh, she’s gonna go out potentially dancing or drinking or, what’s she gonna be exposed, medically to that could put you at risk, you know, of an infection or, or whatnot. I envision would be quite hard. 

[00:37:14] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. So I think, yeah, ’cause my immune system’s probably, like always try to rebuild. So…,

[00:37:21] Kate: Yeah.

[00:37:21] Nicole: I think, yeah, I was going out with my friends. I think, my dad was probably more concerned about like me, going out, drinking and that side of things. Especially like, I think for me, I didn’t really understand the impacts around health and things at that sort of stage. ‘Cause all I knew from when I was young was, you know, you’re normal, you’re like everyone else. Just go on with your life sort of thing and just enjoy. So I sort of had that mindset from, I would say 19 to maybe 23, 24. And just, do the things that you wanna do and yeah, just enjoy with your friends and things.

[00:37:56] Kate: Embrace it.

[00:37:57] Nicole: Yeah. So I think for my parents, I guess they’re probably watching, sort of from afar. But I was living with my parents so they sort of saw what I was getting up to or doing.

[00:38:05] Kate: Yeah

[00:38:05] Nicole: But yeah. Probably, maybe like we could be a little bit concerned, but I think they just wanted me to enjoy like at the end of the day. ‘Cause I had been through so much, it’s something that I needed to do.

[00:38:16] Kate: Yeah. And they most likely respected, like where you are at, but also knowing that there is, once you turn 18 in a sense, there is only so much that they can do and control as well. So it is that really hard balance, isn’t it? 

[00:38:29] Nicole: Yeah, definitely.

[00:38:30] Kate: And then what happened? How’s everything else been since the diagnosis?

[00:38:35] Nicole: Yeah, so everything was really good. Like I was really happy where I was at with things. So yeah, I started at Kmart when I was 19. I sort of worked my way up in retail, through a few different jobs and ended up as a store manager, in retail. And yeah, I was like, I’m at a really good place, you know, I’ve got a career going. I tried study, it wasn’t for me. Like I always struggled learning and things, I was very hands-on. So yeah, I was just really happy where things were and I was like, ‘nothing is gonna stop me at this point’. But yeah, I, um, turned 25 and a couple of months later I had a new diagnosis with breast cancer, which was really shocking to me. I honestly didn’t think that was gonna be the case. But yeah, I had another diagnosis.

[00:39:20] Kate: No. Oh my God, Nicole. Again, that’s just so shocking. And I, you know, I have known that, but to hear it again, it’s, you just can’t believe it. You can’t believe…

[00:39:31] Nicole: Yeah. 

[00:39:31] Kate: …you were handed that again in a different form.

[00:39:34] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. I think as well, that process was so different to all the other ones that I had. It was quite lengthy. and I was always being reassured that it wouldn’t be anything ’cause my age. 

[00:39:45] Kate: Yeah.

[00:39:45] Nicole: So yeah, like, I found a lump and went to the doctor, like I was proactive. And the doctor’s like, ‘no, like it won’t be anything, but we’ll do the ultrasound’, like you know, make sure. We had a history of benign lumps in the past…,

[00:39:58] Kate: Yeah.

[00:39:58] Nicole: …in the family, so we all thought, you know, it won’t be anything. But once getting that diagnosis, I think that hit the nail on the head for me. And I yeah, definitely.

[00:40:06] Kate: Well, there’s no denying…

[00:40:09] Nicole: Yeah, but…,

[00:40:09] Kate: …once you’ve got the diagnosis.

[00:40:09] Nicole: That, that one, though. I was like, I was just so shocked. Like that one, I was just, yeah, I did not see that, I mean, none of ’em I saw coming, but yeah, I don’t know why, but that one rattled me the most. 

[00:40:21] Kate: Yeah. Well, I can imagine . And were you alone when you got that diagnosis being 25? You’re older than you were obviously 18 and 4. So did you receive that diagnosis by yourself?

[00:40:32] Nicole: Yeah. So I went to the doctor’s office ’cause she called me up and she’s like, ‘I need you to come in as soon as possible’. And I was like, oh, okay. That’s weird. So I went in, went into a clinic in Albury and she goes ‘I’m so sorry, like, you’ve actually got breast cancer’. And I was like, ‘What do you mean?’ I was like I was so shocked. Like I knew nothing about breast cancer. I had only seen, you know, like, things, I guess in the news or, briefly online.

[00:40:57] Kate: Mmm.

[00:40:57] Nicole: I was just like, ‘what?’ I was just so shocked. I was by myself, had no one with me. Like I don’t know, they didn’t even suggest to have a support person. Like, I didn’t have a partner, nothing. So, I was just…

 [00:41:07] Kate: Oh.

[00:41:08] Nicole: Yeah, I was just totally in shock. And I actually had my mum in the car, I think, and  one of my sisters. ‘Cause they waited for me, and I just went out there to the car and I was like, ‘you won’t believe it’. And I just, I think I just burst out crying. I was like, yeah, so shocked. 

[00:41:22] Kate: Yeah, and I can imagine it would’ve taken a lot because as you know, statistically, they say for women under 40, you know, it’s not common. And then I know you, you use these words when you got the diagnosis when you’re 18, but I’ve already had one, you know, I’ve already had a cancer diagnosis. Again? Like… Did that kind of run through your head as well? 

[00:41:44] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. And I think I like said to the doctor, I was like, ‘is this related?’ Because third one…,

 [00:41:48] Kate: Mmm.

[00:41:48] Nicole: In the space of 25 years, I was like, this is…,

 [00:41:52] Kate: Yeah.

[00:41:53] Nicole: Yeah. I was like, ‘this is absolutely crazy’. Like ‘cause I was in the country, I was like, send me to the best place you can, like I don’t care if it’s Melbourne, like, I want the best care possible. ‘Cause I was like this is the third time now. Like I just couldn’t believe it. ‘Cause I think when they tell you a diagnosis, they run straight into, ‘okay, this is what’s happening’. And you’re in such shock. Like, you just have no idea what sort of, they’re saying to you. I was just like, she was like, ‘I’m gonna send you to the surgeon and this and this’. And I was like, I dunno what’s going on right now. I was in that shock mode. 

[00:42:21] Kate: Yeah. You’re still processing the words that she just said…,

[00:42:25] Nicole: Yes

[00:42:25] Kate: That you have a diagnosis, and then she was already in action station. 

[00:42:29] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. She was straight into action and I was like, ‘just send me to Melbourne’. I was like, ‘I’ve always had everything done in Melbourne’. So, yeah, she was straight into action. But I think the next week, yeah, I was in Melbourne, again, seeing the surgeon. Having more tests just to make sure, even though I guess that one sort of confirmed it, but they do more testing…

[00:42:49] Kate: Mmm.

[00:42:29] Nicole: To try and see where it’s at, if it’s spread and things like that before they do any sort of surgery. But yeah, I hadn’t processed it. Even when like a week later I feel I was just like, oh, you know, I’ll get through it again and, my life will return to normal sort of thing. But this one was quite a challenge.

[00:43:06] Kate: Yeah. And in what way was it a challenge, Nicole? 

[00:43:09] Nicole: I feel like because…, so with the breast cancer, I had the surgery to remove the lump, so I had a lumpectomy and then. They said to me, they’re like, you’ll have that, and you know, you’ll have some medications after. ’cause I had hormone positive breast cancer. But they didn’t sort of say to me, you know, there’ll be chemo, there’ll be radiation. So I guess this one opened up a lot of the old doors for me from when I was a child and the chemo and the side effects that you sort of have. And yeah, I was just in pure like shock once I had the surgery and they’re like, okay, like you’re gonna have to have chemo again and I think losing your hair and yeah, it was just, it was a very, very challenging time for me. 

[00:43:49] Kate: Mmm. Yeah. And tell me about that you said, you touched on it, it really did bring up a lot from, your childhood. Did this time you have any, psychosocial support or counseling to help you through? Or did you try and battle it yourself? 

[00:44:05] Nicole: Yeah, so I was really lucky. So, by this stage, there was actually now a cancer hospital in Albury. So I had my surgery in Melbourne essentially, and then had my treatment at Albury. But they had quite a good setup in terms of, they had like a psychologist I could see, ‘cause…

[00:44:21] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:21] Nicole:  I was working as a full-time store manager, so I really couldn’t…, I just knew mentally, I was like, I cannot manage people, let alone manage my own mind. So that sort of was put on hold. 

[00:44:29] Kate: Yes.

[00:44:30] Nicole: I had to like go to psychologists to sort of accept what I was going through. Because I was like in the mid twenties, like you’re still quite young. And again, my life had changed and I just, yeah, I think I struggled to sort of accept that it had changed as well. 

[00:44:44] Kate: And not in your control. 

[00:44:45] Nicole: I know, outta my control. So,

[00:44:47] Kate: Yep.

 [00:44:48] Nicole: Yeah. I had all the genetic tests. Nothing to say there’s any links or I have any genetic predispositions. So, not related at all. But, yeah, I had a lot of support, I would say from the hospital. They were quite good. Even like during my chemo, my oncologist in Albury was really good as well. Like, very good at…

[00:45:06] Kate: Yeah.

[00:45:06] Nicole: Um, supporting me. So yeah, I was very lucky in the sense that I had that support system at the hospital and at home as well with my parents, again, having to rely on them. So…,

[00:45:17] Kate: Did you have to move back in or were you already with them?

[00:45:20] Nicole: So I was living with my parents, but I was thinking to move like to Melbourne at the time, like around that time. But yeah, when I was diagnosed it was towards the end of COVID 2021. So yeah, everything was sort of put on hold. I mean, good and bad in a sense that I didn’t move and sort of miss something…,

[00:45:38] Kate: Mmm.

[00:45:38] Nicole: …that was happening with my health. So yeah, I was living with my parents. But yeah, I was just having to rely on the family again. And I almost felt like guilty ’cause I was like, this is always happening to me and I’m always having to rely on people. 

[00:45:50] Kate: And how did you get through that? I think that’s a really common feeling that a lot of people feel, the guilt. 

[00:45:56] Nicole: Yeah, I think the whole time I was like, try to be strong and accepting, you know, sometimes you do have to rely on other people. Even with like meals and things, like when you have chemo, it’s quite hard some days to even get outta bed. 

[00:46:09] Kate: Mmm. 

[00:46:09] Nicole: Like you have the nausea, like you can only eat certain things. So I think I just had to realise this is only a short timeframe where I do have to have this chemo, and recovery. So I do need to like, try and speak up and ask for help where needed. But, yeah. It’s just one of those things that, you know, you’re used to being independent and doing things for yourself, but I think people are definitely more than happy to sort of help, especially family and things when times are tough. So I think you just have to realise that they’re there for you and they’ll help you. 

[00:46:41] Kate: Absolutely. And you’re right, it’s a really hard thing to accept. But it’s so important to allow people around you to help and the hard thing is, I think also, I mean, you correct me if I’m wrong, but to have to speak up when you are already unwell, when you’re already struggling with so much and you’re physically just trying to get through the day and fight for life. And then to have to verbalise, ‘Hey, I actually need…, I need this type of meal, or I really need help getting outta bed’. Or, that loss of independence that you are also fighting with, that can be also really hard to then have to need to voice to people, ‘Hey, I need this’ or…,

[00:47:17] Nicole: Yeah. I, I feel like voicing that you need help. I think that’s the hardest part. I’m someone that, I just don’t like relying on other people, so…

[00:47:26] Kate: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:27] Nicole: I always like to, you know, seem strong, on the outside and, thinking that, you know, I’m fine. Like, even though, once you lose your hair and everything, you sort of do look well for me. I did, did look ill. So I try to be like, yeah, I’m all good. Even though, like I was feeling sick, I was in pain like some days couldn’t get outta bed. And I just feel it is one of those things, like asking for help. It’s never easy. So…,

[00:47:49] Kate: Mmm, never. 

[00:47:49] Nicole: Looking back though, I think you do need to rely on people to an extent.

[00:47:54] Kate: Yeah.

[00:47:54] Nicole:  Because doing everything yourself, especially in a cancer diagnosis, it’s hard. 

[00:47:59] Kate: Yeah. And it can be counterintuitive as well. You know, you put all that energy out to try and do a task that you potentially could get someone to help you with. Whereas if you do the task, it could lay you in bed for two days.  Instead of going, well, if I had asked the help and I had pushed through, you know, almost your shame or your guilt, you could actually be in a better place of having that support and being able to retain your strength for when you need it as well. 

[00:48:25] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. I think you just keep pushing through and you think that you don’t need that help. But yeah, when I look back I’m like, oh, I could have asked for more help in certain areas, rather than struggling. 

[00:48:37] Kate: Yeah.

[00:48:37] Nicole: Like, you experience all sorts of things. I think nausea is a big one, but even just the mental side of things, you have to process like on a day to day what’s sort of happening physically. You do get, depends on the chemo, like weight gain or you can get weight loss and, there’s just fluctuations in a lot of areas and yeah, it’s just that having that stability, it’s sort of gone. So it’s just, yeah, it’s really difficult, trying to have that all on yourself. So I think, you need to have that support, whether it’s, you know, family, hospital, friends, to get through those times. 

[00:49:07] Kate: Yeah.

[00:49:07] Nicole: Like it’s a tough journey or challenge I’d say. And you need people that rally together with you.

[00:49:12] Kate: Yeah, because it’s  right, like, not having stability and having things outta your control as well is it can be, for some people, really anxiety-inducing that you don’t know what’s gonna happen. And you know, for you, would it be that your body has gone through three big things? Did that also play on your head? Just go…, the lack of trust in your body as well?

[00:49:35] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. I feel like day to day I’m like, I don’t worry so much about reocurrence. I try not to think down that sort of path. But I think you always have signs and symptoms of, at least for me, from what I’ve been through, like fatigue. I’ve always had, especially after the breast cancer treatment, and even just like brain fog memory as well. My memory’s definitely not as good as it used to be. So yeah, it’s just…,

[00:50:02] Kate: Yeah.

[00:50:02] Nicole: You do have those sort of reminders and there is like a difference in how you live and the long-term side effects and things as well. To how I would say, I guess, they say every normal person as such. But yeah, it’s just, there’s definitely a lot that day to day, you feel.

[00:50:20] Kate: And what do you do to, you know, you named some of the few challenges that you have day to day. What do you do with that throughout your day to help you counterbalance those things that are more difficult for you? 

[00:50:33] Nicole: I think as well, like with, say like fatigue, I just, try to slow down. I’m like, I’m someone that can just do too much. Like if I have a good day and I’m like, yes, I’ve got energy. I’m like, yes, let’s just do heaps of stuff. But I think day to day I’m just like, if I’m feeling fatigued now, I’ve gotten better at it. Just slow down. You know, you gotta be kind and take a day to yourself to relax, or watch something that you enjoy. Like, that’s what I like to do. I definitely value my own time a lot more now. I used to be, like always, all the time wanting to be social and stuff. But I still love being social, but I also think if youre…, or for myself experiencing fatigue or brain fog, it’s just you need to do something for yourself and unwind. ‘Cause people may not understand that, one day you might not be actually able to catch up ’cause you know you’re feeling terrible or flat or whatever. Yeah, I decide…, 

[00:51:27] Kate: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:27] Nicole: I’m just gonna take a day sort of to myself and do what I can. 

[00:51:30] Kate: And not push through.

[00:51:31] Nicole: Yes, exactly. Yeah, that’s definitely something that you shouldn’t do ’cause I feel like you end up feeling worse. 

[00:51:36] Kate: Mmm.

[00:51:37] Nicole: Like if you just keep pushing through, you just feel terrible. Like there’s definitely times where I have pushed through and, you know, I feel…

[00:51:42] Kate: You pay for it?

[00:51:43] Nicole: Yeah, uh, burnt out is the word. 

[00:51:46] Kate: Mm-hmm

[00:51:46] Nicole: So yeah, I definitely now am more aware of the side effects that I do have. Like I’ve also, had a few heart sort of issues, from the treatment that I’ve had as well. So I do, I think, have more fatigue from that side of things. So I try to now be more mindful of like what I’m feeling and, what I’m doing day to day and not overexerting myself. So, yeah.

[00:52:09] Kate: And do you have a good support of friends that understand that and, well I guess no one can truly understand, but just accept as to how you respond and things like that, and show up in life. 

[00:52:21] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. I think as well I try to balance catchups and things with friends. I try not to do too many things within the week ’cause I know that I’m gonna be feeling so fatigued. So I do have like good supportive friends I’ve got, yeah, since moving to Melbourne, I’ve been here for a couple of years now. But definitely created a good friendship group and people who understand what I’ve gone through or they know someone who’s gone through it. ‘Cause it’s just so common now. I think cancer diagnosis compared to 10, 15 years ago it was not as common. But yeah, I’ve definitely got the friends that understand. I think my family as well, they’re quite good at understanding that sometimes I’m like, ‘look, I just, I can’t today, like, I’m so tired and fatigued’. So yeah, it’s good to have those people that sort of get it in a way.

[00:53:09] Kate: So that diagnosis, what year did you say your breast cancer? End of ‘21? Is that what it was?

[00:53:14] Nicole: Yeah. So it was mid 2021 when I was diagnosed, so it was July and then I had surgery August and then chemo started end of September. 

[00:53:25] Kate: Yup.

[00:53:26] Nicole: So yeah, it was quite a lengthy journey ’cause I had the first surgery and I didn’t get clear margins at the time. So they were like, oh, once we finish chemo we’ll probably have to do a re-excision just to be sure I guess. So that was, yeah, I finished chemo December, and then March I had the re-excision and then a couple of months later radiation. So it sort of went for a year from mid 2021 to mid 2022. 

[00:53:52] Kate: Yeah.

[00:53:52] Nicole: And…

[00:53:52] Kate: And then recovery. 

[00:53:53] Nicole: Yeah, and then recovery. Yes, that’s right. So it’s quite a lengthy process. Like it’s never a quick, you know, have these, chemo and you’ll be done in a week. It certainly changes things a lot.

[00:54:04] Kate: And as you said, like, when you were four, five. You know that even once it’s done, it’s still like ongoing. You still have the side effects that you deal with daily. And, you know, I wanna ask, how are you now? Like, if that was the end of ‘22, radiation, et cetera, had finished. How have you been since? 

[00:54:25] Nicole: Yeah, I’ve been…, I’m doing better. I, um, did have a breast cancer recurrence mid last year, which again, unexpected. 

[00:54:33] Kate: Yeah.

[00:54:33] Nicole: But I’ve, I’m now no evidence of disease, so I was sort of lucky I did have to have single mastectomy this time around. It was pre-cancerous cells that they did find. So they were like, I think it’s best we do this just, to cover all bases. I didn’t have to have any chemo or radiation again, but I am on long-term sort of medication being hormone positive breast cancer. 

[00:54:56] Kate: Yeah, 

[00:54:57] Nicole: So I do, yeah, I experienced a lot of fatigue, brain fog. Essentially I’m in medical menopause, so I get all the hot flushes and day to day side effects, like sleep disturbance and things, so…,

[00:55:09] Kate: Oh, Nicole.

[00:55:09] Nicole: I’m doing the best I can. I like to be positive about things and, I feel like more than ever I just, yeah. As I’ve said previously, when I was 18, I wanted to enjoy life. I still wanna enjoy life and do the things that, you know, I wanna do, but I think in a different way. I definitely feel my mindset’s changed. The things that I liked before diagnosis of breast cancer, I feel like sort of changed as well. So yeah, it’s been a different journey. I feel like a lot of things for me sort of changed. 

[00:55:42] Kate: Yeah.

[00:55:42] Nicole: And I’m doing I feel like pretty good day-to-day…,

[00:55:46] Kate: Yeah.

[00:55:46] Nicole: Considering all circumstances. But yeah, I just like to remain positive.

[00:55:50] Kate: Absolutely. It sounds like after every diagnosis, even way back when you were four, that every time there was a… another mind shift that you had to do, you know, and that you did, that you had to adapt to, which is incredible that, you know, some people do that throughout their entire lifetime. You know, when, in their 80 plus years. But you’ve had to do it in such a short period of time and really pivotal times of growth and maturity and development in life. And so I really, I…, I’m in awe of how you sit here today and you, you share your story and, you tell us how you adapt and just get on. It is truly incredible. 

[00:56:30] Nicole: Yeah. Thanks so much. I really appreciate that. It’s definitely been a journey. I mean, I don’t think there’s too many people out there who have had, I guess, three, four different diagnoses in, you know, a short time. 

[00:56:43] Kate: Yeah.

[00:56:43] Nicole: I’m, yeah, 29 now. So in that period of time, having that many different cancers, no genetic link or no understanding.

[00:56:52] Kate: Mmm.

[00:56:52] Nicole: Like I’ve been in studies and things to see if there’s anything they don’t know about that’s sort of causing this. But yeah, at this stage it’s just, pure bad luck, I guess. So yeah, it’s definitely a crazy experience that I’ve been on but yeah…, 

[00:57:06] Kate: Absolutely. And it’s time now for some really good luck in, in the realm of your health and for you to continue to, what I find really incredible is that you’ve continued, as you’ve said through this podcast to push through. You know, you haven’t let it hold you back. It sounds like you’ve moved to Melbourne, you’ve moved outta your parents’ house and you’re in Melbourne and living life to the way and the fullest that you can.

[00:57:30] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. I think when you have these sort of diagnoses, I guess with the breast cancer and I was like, I have to move. I’ve been wanting to do it for so long, I was like, I can’t, you know, let it hold me back now. And I definitely have a different sort of life to what I did when I was in Albury and then coming to Melbourne and yeah, it’s good now. Like I definitely am very happy and grateful for where I’m at with things. And yeah, I just always hope, you know, for the future that this is sort of it for me. And I like to believe that I’m at a good place now with everything. So, yeah, 

[00:58:02] Kate: Have you created a bucket list? Because you sound like you’re a lady who, when she puts her mind to something, she wants to achieve it. But, as you said through this, you wanna enjoy life. Have you created a list of what brings you joy and what you wanna achieve in life? 

[00:58:16] Nicole: Look, I haven’t created at least yet, but I think that’s definitely something I’ve sort of been thinking about. I was like, I need to do, with all the cancer and stuff that I’ve had, I’ve, I haven’t really done much travel or, experience too much outside of, you know, Australia. So, yeah, it’s something now I think I’m at a point where I am lucky where I’m at with things. So I need to start, you know, jotting down what I wanna do, and where I wanna go, I suppose.

[00:58:40] Kate: Now or never.

[00:58:41] Nicole: Yeah, go from there ’cause as I said, like you just you need to do things. ’cause you just never know, like life just changes and you’re just in shock. Like it’s just you’re just not…,

[00:58:53] Kate: You’re right. Life does change in an instant, and what it’s showing you is that it’s not within your control. So the things you can control and you can plan for, and I think the one thing that life can’t take away and can’t control is our hope. We are in control of that. And as you say, your hope for the future is being able to go out and travel and enjoy life and embrace life as to how you wish and can, that’s a beautiful thing. 

[00:59:19] Nicole: Yeah, definitely. I think you have to try and hold on and stay strong and, mindset is a tough one. Like when you’ve been through it, it’s different for everyone, like their cancer journey and things. So yeah, individualised on how you sort of feel and think and I dunno how, but I’ve just managed to have a strong mindset and I’m not gonna sit here and say I don’t have days where I feel crap and don’t, you know, don’t feel sorry for myself. 

[00:59:46] Kate: Yeah.

[00:59:46] Nicole: But yeah, it’s definitely something I try to hold strong in and keep pushing forward and enjoying everything that I do and appreciating life and yeah, just I feel like every moment as well you sort of appreciate more, like from when I’ve had the breast cancer diagnosis, I just don’t really sweat the smaller things. It’s more like, that is the least of my worries. 

[01:00:08] Kate: Yep. 

[01:00:08] Nicole: You know, I’ve been through this, this, and this. So yeah, there’s no point stressing over that because you just don’t know, what could happen the next day. 

[01:00:15] Kate: Absolutely. Well, you have shared some really beautiful golden nuggets throughout this episode, and we do always ask our guests if there’s anything that they can give to our listeners, whether that be some golden nuggets or some words of wisdom, in other words. Is there anything that you else would like to share with our listeners that are listening today? 

[01:00:35] Nicole: Yeah, I think just, it’s easier said than done, like staying strong, but, lean on people when you can. Don’t be afraid to seek support, because it’s just tough, like the journey. It’s relentless. You need that sort of support and people are always willing to sort of help you where they can and, to lean on or even just to talk to, so…, I definitely think like leaning on people and supporting is one of the bigger ones I would probably recommend.

[01:01:02] Kate: Yeah. Uh, well thank you so much, Nicole, for sharing your story. you and I have spoken for a wee while now, and, I am in absolute awe of you. And I think that for someone of your age that you know, that has been handed these cards, you have really shown us how we can really stand up and face each journey that potentially is handed to us. So, I thank you for you sharing your story your wisdom today. So thank you. 

[01:01:32] Nicole: Thank you, Kate. I really appreciate you having me on the podcast today. And yeah, it’s been great being able to share a part of my journey and connect with you. [01:01:40] Kate: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.